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| Anatomy of an attack - an analysis http://redrepublicgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42678 |
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| Author: | Wishing [ Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anatomy of an attack - an analysis |
Also - you are at least partially 100% right about the power attack thing. Facebook pointed out that it actually says in the FAQ that you can upgrade to a power attack after an opponent's counterattack declaration. No specific word on the Favor spend though. Nobody seems to want to say whether they allow upgrade after favor spend. People aren't very talkative when it comes to rules and how they play. 
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| Author: | Wishing [ Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anatomy of an attack - an analysis |
I made a new flowchart just for comparing attack actions with reactions, and to make it more useful, I plotted in where I think the different special abilities that relate to attacks fit in.  I hope it is readable. TA = Taunt CA = Counterattack AEG = Aegis RET = Retaliate RB = Rebuff ENV = Envenom So TA and CA both only trigger if a specific model is targeted by an attack, and if that attack was declared. AEG triggers if a specific model is targeted by an attack, but doesn't care if it was declared or not. RET triggers if 0 successes are rolled during an attack combat roll specifically. So an opportunity attack cannot trigger Retaliate in this interpretation. ENV triggers off successful attack damage, which can come from any of these sources. RB, interestingly, is written so that it can be triggered off two things: Both scoring no successes during an attack roll, and also failing to get past ARM during the damage application. Which creates kind of a weird interaction. If an opportunity attack only counts as an attack if it is successful, then it means that Rebuff behaves oddly with it. It means that if the opp attack fails to score any net successes, Rebuff doesn't go off, because at this stage, it is still an opp attack, not yet an attack. But if you do score successes, and the damage is absorbed by ARM, then the opp attack does trigger Rebuff, because we have now transitioned into the universal damage application step. Weird. The only way to get around this is to say that "determination of whether the combat roll was a success or not" actually belongs to the damage application phase. But then counterattacks would trigger Rebuff too. Which would also be weird. Walrus. thoughts on Rebuff vs. reactions? |
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| Author: | Wishing [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anatomy of an attack - an analysis |
OK, two more flowcharts, which I think are pretty straightforward now I have a decent Ambush interpretation. "Effects":  Beastly specials:  Some interesting variations... the "Make Attack" effect (Spite) is the only flow that targets with a standard attack despite not declaring as one. And the two beast attacks, which seem to be meant to represent the same kind of thing, result in standard attack combat, even though they determine the target in their own unique ways. Counterattack, Opportunity Attack and the "Immediately Resolve Attack" effect (Ambush) all have in common that they follow their own unique flows until the time comes to apply damage. Interesting conclusions being that the beast attacks can both trigger Retaliate, but obviously not counterattacks. The only thing that can trigger counterattacks - as well as Taunt and Fade - is a standard declaration of an attack action. |
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| Author: | Wishing [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anatomy of an attack - an analysis |
Makes me think... Valen and Hermes might be a good tag team in the arena. If they both engage an opponent, the opponent cannot declare attacks against Valen, so has to target Hermes, which they have to pay Favor to do. |
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| Author: | KaptainWalrus [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anatomy of an attack - an analysis |
Wow, you went to a ton of work there, well done! I've been away from a keyboard for a couple days, and haven't had a chance to really respond. But I don't really need to add anything, I think I agree with all your conclusions shown with these charts. Interesting to see how the different special abilities can be plotted out as to when they happen. Gives me a different way to think about how much value I assign the abilities when making cohort decisions. Quote: Walrus. thoughts on Rebuff vs. reactions? I do think I have changed my mind on Rebuff. A successful counterattack, that doesn't deal damage, seems like it should trigger RB. Still, it seems a bit weird to me. It's a defensive ability, that can trigger during the model's active turn while having declared an attack. However, it does make me think Ywain might be the next model I pick up.
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| Author: | Wishing [ Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anatomy of an attack - an analysis |
I'm so glad you think it is useful.  Would you agree that an unsuccessful Opportunity Attack cannot trigger either Rebuff or Retaliate, but a successful Opportunity Attack can trigger Rebuff? That's the conclusion I mainly struggle with. |
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| Author: | Wishing [ Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anatomy of an attack - an analysis |
Funny thing that actually came up in several games today for me. One of my friends was playing Sereqet and Leo and was taking clear turns constantly in order to get wild attacks, and asked early on if she could use Envenom with a wild attack. Based on the charts, I said that in my interpretation, yes, you can. But it feels weird, because, as I argued in the Rampage thread, you can't usually spend fatigue on a clear turn. The fact that Envenom costs fatigue to upgrade makes it feel similar to a power attack, which also costs fatigue to upgrade, and which you definitely cannot use on a clear turn. But the ability simply says that you can upgrade after a succesful attack. And the wild rules say that the beast makes an attack. I can't see how it can possibly not be allowed, based on the wording as written, even though it feels weird. |
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| Author: | KaptainWalrus [ Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anatomy of an attack - an analysis |
I would say that based on how we've been interpreting attacks, pretty much anything aside from abilities like Retaliate, has to be a "successful attack" in order to deal damage. And successful attacks don't seem to require it being a particular type of turn. (i.e Active, reactive, clear) With that in mind, Envenom should be able to be used regardless of what type of turn it is, so long as a "successful attack was made". Based on the chart you made, Envenom seems like a very good ability that can trigger a lot. |
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| Author: | Wishing [ Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anatomy of an attack - an analysis |
Yep, I agree exactly. Once you get to actually successfully damage your target, the only thing that seems to not count as an attack is the group of damaging abilities that don't reference being an attack at all - like Rebuff or Exploit. But let's see if Walker can help by laying some intent on us. 
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| Author: | Wishing [ Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Anatomy of an attack - an analysis |
Based on Walker's quick answers to some questions in email, the charts need to be adjusted at least a little though. He said that if I opportunity attack Ywain and fail to score successes, then his Rebuff kicks in. That must mean that an unsuccessful opportunity attack is an attack, which it isn't in the latest charts. It makes sense intuitively, and I was arguing that it should be early on. It could be easily shown by simply saying that opportunity attack combat is just a variant of standard combat. That's just not how it's described in the rulebook, as you pointed out, so it made sense to treat them differently. |
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