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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:45 am 
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Viridis
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Also, just because I have it handy, this is an overview of how I see the final Apply Damage step as being resolved. I figure it might come in handy for someone because there are quite a lot of steps to it, but as I see it at the moment, it works unproblematically if you follow this guide.

Resolution of Damage Application Sequence

This sequence takes place after a combat roll (of any type) results in any number of successes. (Note that Assault counts as a successful combat roll with one success.)

0. Trigger all effects that have a "successful attack" as their trigger.

1. First add any special bonuses based on pre-existing conditions. This would mainly be the special extra push added by attacking an exhausted model. Choose where in the damage tree you want the extra push to go.

2. Add up how many special effects (push, fatigue, reposition, etc.) you get from your damage tree results and note down the order they resolve in, remembering the potential free push from step 1.

3. Resolve the special effects generated by the damage tree in order (remembering that the first push can be negated by push resistance). These special effects can cause various things to happen:
- If the attacker pushes a defender into a friendly model, you get to add an extra success at the end to the successes you are currently resolving.
- If a result moves either the defender or attacker into a position where the attacker no longer engages the defender, then stop resolving special effects immediately and move on to step 4.
- If the attacker pushes the defender into a hazard or wounding hazard, this can add fatigue or apply damage to the defender. Resolve these and apply damage (steps 7-10) before you move on to the next effect.
- If the attacker pushes the defender into a lethal hazard, this immediately causes the defender to be defeated (step 9). Then, reduce the defender’s Vitality to zero and resolve steps 8 and 10. Normally, Undying would cause a one-time prevention of step 10, but the lethal hazard rules cause you do rewind and apply step 9 again as long as the defender is still in contact with the lethal hazard.

4. Once all pushes and other movement effects from the attack as a whole have been resolved, check if the defender has both been pushed and is now within 3” of a living hazard. If so, then at this point, the living hazard moves and attacks the defender. This attack is resolved separately from the attack that caused the push that triggered the living hazard. Note that this means that the living hazard may end up defeating the defender before the actual damage from the current attack is resolved.

5. Count up how many damage points are connected to the damage tree results that you accessed in your tree, where numbers count as the printed number of points, and special effects count as one point. Apply all those damage points to the defender as one combined package.

6. Subtract the defender's ARM rating from the damage package. If the result after subtraction is zero or less, the attack causes no damage. (Rebuff would trigger.)

7. The defender loses as many Vitality points as the damage points left over after ARM subtraction. Damage points exceeding the amount of remaining Vitality points of the defender are lost.

8. Trigger and resolve all the special Vitality Track effects triggered when damage was applied to the defender’s Vitality track, such as Disengage or Second Wind or Morituri skull effects.

9. If the defender has no Vitality points left, it is defeated. Trigger and resolve any effects that trigger on a model being defeated, such as Undying or Consume Essence. This may cause the defeated model to regain Vitality and thus recover from the intial defeat and remain on the table.

10. If the defender has no Vitality points left, it is fully defeated and is removed from the table.

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Last edited by Wishing on Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:27 am 
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Viridis
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Updated version 1.1 of the flowchart that I think I like better, including numbers for the steps to make them easier to refer to. Maybe 1.2 will include the special beast attacks.

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:32 am 
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The point of having an overview like this is to be able to understand the deeper reasoning behind how the rules are meant to work. So it makes me happy when the overview can explain a conclusion that matches with an answer given by RRG.

Which I feel like I just noticed in another thread (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39328). A player asks if making a counterattack against Proximo triggers Spectacle. Walker says yes, it does.

Spectacle says "When a model successfully attacks this model, the attacking model..."

It would be easy to say "There is no attacking model, because this is a counterattack and not an attack, so it doesn't work."

But looking at the chart, I (now) interpret the "confirmation of successful attack" to be the first part of step 4.1, the resolution of damage. All types of combat lead into that step. Therefore, the chart can explain why all types of combat trigger Spectacle, if the combat is successful for Proximo's opponent.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:48 am 
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Very nice, clean and straightforward. I think this is a good basic starting point, but I have a couple suggestions for any potential future versions.


I don't think Power attack should be included in step 1.1, since the trigger for upgrading a standard attack is anytime prior to dice roll. Which means you still have the option to see how favor dice are applied, before you decide.

And speaking of favor... I think there should be a sub-step added, after the target step, but prior to dice rolls, for declaring the number of favor dice. Especially since the rules state the attacker must declare how many they chose to add to the roll, before the defender.


Quote:
Maybe 1.2 will include the special beast attacks.
Good call on the beast attacks. The Wild rule is interesting in that it's a normal attack, but it doesn't follow the targeting step, as you must attack the closest model. It also brings up an interesting point I hadn't realized before. The wild attack doesn't "declare", so you can't take a counterattack reaction against it.
(I don't play with or against many beasts, so this hasn't ever come up for me)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:14 am 
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KaptainWalrus wrote:
I don't think Power attack should be included in step 1.1, since the trigger for upgrading a standard attack is anytime prior to dice roll. Which means you still have the option to see how favor dice are applied, before you decide.


Really? That's not how I've understood it. I read it as you having to declare a power attack as an upgrade to a normal attack at the same time as you declare the normal attack, way before you get to adding favor.

Power Attack
Cost: Gain 1 additional fatigue level to upgrade an Attack action to a Power Attack.
Trigger: After you declare an Attack action, but before dice are rolled.
Effect: During this attack, the attacker may re-roll any unsuccessful dice once.

I grant you that it doesn't specify, so I might be wrong. But if I am wrong, then it seems weird to me that you can add favor to a Spite attack, but you cannot upgrade it to a power attack. It would make sense to me if you had to upgrade to a power attack during the declaration phase, since that would explain why Spite cannot do it, since it doesn't have a declaration phase.

KaptainWalrus wrote:
And speaking of favor... I think there should be a sub-step added, after the target step, but prior to dice rolls, for declaring the number of favor dice. Especially since the rules state the attacker must declare how many they chose to add to the roll, before the defender.


For sure. All the steps in the chart consist of a number of sub-steps. In this presentation, favor dice declaration is part of the combat resolution, something like this:

1. Attacker declares number of Favor dice to add to the attack.
2. Defender declares number of Favor dice to add to the defense.
3. Attacker and defender simultaneously roll their attack and defense dice, respectively.

KaptainWalrus wrote:
The Wild rule is interesting in that it's a normal attack, but it doesn't follow the targeting step, as you must attack the closest model. It also brings up an interesting point I hadn't realized before. The wild attack doesn't "declare", so you can't take a counterattack reaction against it.
(I don't play with or against many beasts, so this hasn't ever come up for me)


Yep, totally. It seems like you can only ever counterattack against a standard attack action and nothing else, since that is the only type of attack that has a "declaration of attack" step.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:03 pm 
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Quote:
it seems weird to me that you can add favor to a Spite attack, but you cannot upgrade it to a power attack. It would make sense to me if you had to upgrade to a power attack during the declaration phase, since that would explain why Spite cannot do it, since it doesn't have a declaration phase.
Upgrading an attack to a power attack requires the attack to be declared. The rules for adding Favor dice doesn't mention any declaration: "As long as a player has Favor in their pool, they may spend it on Tactics, or their models may spend it to add to attack or defense rolls, or to activate special abilities." The Favor is simply added to the dice pool prior to rolling.

I could be wrong too, but Power attack's trigger window seems pretty large to me, since it simply stipulates you must declare prior to rolling dice. (and that the attack you are upgrading was "declared")

In my mind the flow chart would go: Declare attack > [timing window for declaring power attack opens] > Choose attack target > [timing window for declaring counterattack] > Attacker declares number of Favor dice > Defender declares number of favor dice > [last timing window for declaring upgrade to power attack] > Opposed dice roll > [if power attacking; re-roll unsuccessful dice] > determine net successes.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Yeah, I can see that. And since it doesn't specify anywhere that the upgrade to power attack has to be done at a specific time other than before dice are rolled, your reading that you have a window where you can do the upgrade either before or after stuff happens - like waiting to see whether your opponent counterattacks before you upgrade - cannot be disputed technically.

I doubt that is the intention though. As far as I can tell, most everything else in the game happens at specific times, not during a window. Since power attack is described in the section about what kind of actions you can declare during your activation, I am assuming that the intention is that the upgrade has to be declared during that step too.

Without Walker, who hasn't visited us for a while, we won't know for sure, but interesting with these two different interpretations.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:17 pm 
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I'm not 100% sure how to fit wild attacks and hazard attacks into the chart so it looks nice, but the basics seem pretty clear.

Step one: Trigger wild attack.
Step two: Measure distance to find target.
Step three: Move beast if required.
Step four: Roll standard attack combat.
Step five: Apply damage.

So there is no declaration (hence no fatigue cost and, I would argue, no upgrade to power attack) and also no targeting choice, so no Aegis or Taunt.

And the hazard attack is almost identical, the only change is that there is no step two measurement, since the target is automatically the model that triggered the attack.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:52 pm 
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I think that Wild attacks should almost get their own separate section of the chart, since unlike other attacks, it is compulsory, and happens during the Clear turn.

(Other clear turn exceptions being Incite and Cleopatra's Gift triggering Spite or Frenzy. And Ambush, sort of. Ambush doesn't really apply here though since it skips all the steps and goes right to resolving.)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Oh yeah! Ambush is definitely interesting in terms of the chart.

As I see it, Ambush has an initiation step - pay the cost to trigger it, similar to how the "cost" for Spite to trigger is to sustain damage.

But does Ambush have the targeting step? In a way, it does, because you get to freely choose who you ambush against. Where else would you choose that? If we say it does, then it would follow Spite and be an attack that doesn't declare, but does target as an attack, and therefore triggers Aegis. But something about the way it says "immediately resolve an attack" makes me feel like it wants to skip past the targeting part and go straight to damage and not trigger Aegis along the way.

Clear turn attacks in general seem to me to follow the normal attack structure though - I don't see how they could not. Everything that can in any way have any part of it work like an attack needs to be explainable through the chart. Could you explain more?

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