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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:00 am 
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Crudus
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Ok, that clarifies some things. It does make a lot of sense, of the attack reactions, Counterattack is the only on that specifies it does not count as declaring an attack.

Thanks for the update, keep them coming!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:03 am 
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But a chart where opportunity combat counts as attack combat would look like this.

Image

It does feel more intuitive for me for opportunity attacks to trigger Retaliate, so I prefer this version. And it still doesn't trigger Aegis cos of the targeting issue.

Edit: And it also makes sense to me that a successful counterattack can trigger Rebuff, but an unsuccessful counterattack cannot - because an unsuccessful counterattack is actually just an unsuccessful defense, with no offensive component.

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Last edited by Wishing on Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:05 am 
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KaptainWalrus wrote:
Ok, that clarifies some things. It does make a lot of sense, of the attack reactions, Counterattack is the only on that specifies it does not count as declaring an attack.

Thanks for the update, keep them coming!


Cheers! Note that declaring an opportunity attack is still not the same as declaring an attack, it just resolves combat as one. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:05 pm 
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This topic has prompted me to take a look at the current models to see what potential special rules could possibly come into play with your flow chart. I "think" I have them all, and that I have the trigger correct, but please let me know if I forgot something, or if you think I got something wrong. It also made me think of a couple more questions along this topic.


Retaliate: Frigge (Triggered by unsuccessful attack actions, opportunity attack reactions and Spite; not triggered by unsuccessful counterattacks reactions)

Protective: Hroka (Triggered by attack actions; Not triggered by counterattack reactions, opportunity attack reactions, Spite or Ambush)

Rebuff: Ywain (Triggered by attack actions, successful counterattack reactions, opportunity attack reactions, and Spite) [Would Ywain Rebuff an Ambush that doesn’t deal damage? I.E. a Push]

Valor: Aquila; Septimus (Triggered by successful damaging attack action, and opportunity attack reaction; Not triggered during successful counterattack reactions) [If counterattacking, are you still the considered “the defender”?]

Aegis of Fame: Hermes (Triggered by attack actions, and Spite; Not triggered by counterattack reactions, opportunity attack reactions, or Ambush)

Sanction: Tribune (Triggered by unsuccessful attack actions, opportunity attack reactions and Spite; Not triggered by counterattack reactions)

Fade: Valen (Triggered by attack actions; Not triggered by counterattack reactions, opportunity attack reactions, Spite or Ambush)

Taunt: Viatrix; Ur-Kek; Wendigo (Triggered by attack actions; Not triggered by counterattack reactions, opportunity attack reactions, Spite or Ambush)

Inevitable: Stheno (Triggered by unsuccessful attack actions and opportunity attack reactions; Not triggered during counterattack reactions)

Envenom: Sereqet (Triggered by successful attack actions, counterattack reactions, and opportunity attack reactions)

Spectacle: Proximo (Triggered by successful attack actions, counterattack reactions, opportunity attack reactions, and Spite) [Does Ambush trigger Spectacle? Is "resolve an attack" the same as "successfully attacking"?]


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Viridis
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Looks excellent! I can see no fault in this.

Rebuff vs. Ambush: I would say that yeah, Rebuff works against Ambush. It's a successful attack (that conveniently cannot fail), so if it fails to damage, Rebuff 'em.

Valor vs. Counterattack: I actually am confused by Valor. The wording is "After the resolution of an attack in which the defending enemy model..."

I don't know where in the flow this "resolution of an attack" is meant to be determined. If it is after the application of damage, then counterattack would trigger it too, since a successful counterattack is a successful attack. I just see "the defender" here as meaning "the model taking damage". If we assume that the Valor wording is supposed to be analagous to the "after a successful attack" we see on other abilities, then I think every type of attack can trigger it.

Ambush vs. Spectacle: Basically the same question as with Valor above. I would say yeah, the two things seem to me to be the same thing, so I would let Spectacle trigger from the Ambush.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Valor has confused me a bit as well. I'll admit, I really hadn't looked at it too closely until today.

This rule brings up the question of "attacker vs defender." In standard attack actions, and opportunity attacks, its pretty clear. If you are rolling dice for your ATK value, you are the attacker. If you are rolling for DEF, you are the defender. However, counterattack changes that up.

In order to even declare the reaction, you must be the "defender" by default. However, does that change once you declare the reaction? Once you successfully counterattack? Never?


I personally don't think Valor can ever occur from a counterattack.

Valor - After the resolution of an attack in which the defending enemy model generated Favor from damage caused by this model, this model earns 1 Favor.

If Aquila is the reactive model, declaring a counterattack reaction, then how is it possible that his attacker can be a "defending enemy model", and thus potentially trigger Valor? He had to be attacked in the first place for the situation to even occur.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Sure, but it all depends on what a "defending model" is. I don't know for sure, but the simplest approach in my mind is to say that it is the model that is currently on the receiving end of some pain. (Almost wrote "paint" there.)

In that logic, an attack starts out with an attacker and a defender. When the defender declares a counterattack, now both models are both attackers and defenders at the same time. Whichever model wins the combat roll-off ends up being the final attacker, and the other guy becomes the final defender.

Cos that's what a counterattack is meant to do. Flip the attack around. If Aquila hits Frigge but she ends up axing him over the head instead, then she ended up being the one attacking him, even though he started it.

The only alternative I see is to say that when the defender declares a counterattack, both models become attackers, and there is no defender anymore. That way, Valor would not trigger. I can see that as an option too.

Edit: Or, of course, that the attacker is the model who declared the attack and the defender is the one that they chose as their target, and a counterattack doesn't change that. I suppose that is simpler...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Pg. 7 "Combat is an opposed roll between the attacker and the defender"

I don't see anything that indicates a model is able to be both simultaneously.

Counterattack simply amends the standard combat procedure to change which stat is used for the opposed dice roll. "Roll your ATK instead of DEF against the attack." It doesn't say anything about changing the two models "role" in that combat. I think the additional verbiage of the counterattack rule adds weight to this view. "If you roll more net successes than the attacker, resolve those net successes as if you had made a successful attack."

The counterattack rule clearly states that the opposing model is the attacker. Which to me, means the counter attacking model has to be the defender. This means a counterattacking model is not "attacking" until the dice roll has resolved with at least 1 net success in their favor, thus creating a successful attack. Up until that point, it is still the "defender".


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:10 pm 
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True enough. I feel like you can perfectly well say that the "roles" in the attack aren't switched by the counterattack being successful either. Nowhere indicates that it should. It's simply the defender scoring a successful attack.

I can see it either way really. But I think I agree with you that the closest reading of the written rules seems to suggest the above.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:19 pm 
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Which actually makes me feel like the combat section of the reactions chart should maybe be amended.

Really, the attacker is doing the same thing - rolling their ATK rating - whether the defender is rolling their DEF or ATK. So maybe it's not fair to say that both rolls are either "attack combat" or "counterattack combat". Maybe it should be shown as a separate attack roll and a separate defense roll.

I think that would be clearer and give a more accurate picture.

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