Arena Rex Forums

Arena Rex Forums
It is currently Sun Feb 25, 2024 8:12 am

All times are UTC-05:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Ywain vs Counterattack
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:29 am 
Offline
Viridis
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:38 am
Posts: 1484
Location: Scandinavian Denmark
Ywain attacks an enemy gladiator. The enemy counterattacks, and scores one success more than Ywain, and picks a damage result that does 2 damage. This damage is absorbed by Ywain's armour.

Does Ywain's Rebuff ability trigger from this?

Rebuff: When an enemy model attacks this model but fails to deal any damage, this model resolves a push against the attacking model.

The question is basically whether a successful counterattack is considered to be an attack for the purposes of special abilities that say "when X attacks..." and so on.

_________________
My Arena Rex painting log


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:12 am 
Offline
Crudus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:19 am
Posts: 112
I am also going to link a similar question posed in the basic rules question thread, about Aegis of Fame, because I think your question there is also related here.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34638#p49825

I would be interested to hear an official answer.


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:27 am 
Offline
Viridis
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:38 am
Posts: 1484
Location: Scandinavian Denmark
Yep, very much related, thank you. Basically I just figured that sometimes it is easier if a specific question has its own specific and to the point thread. :)

_________________
My Arena Rex painting log


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:24 pm 
Offline
Noxius

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:19 pm
Posts: 1
Here's how I would play it and I think it's supported by RAW and RAI:

Rebuff would not trigger ever on a counterattack, because it specifically says attack.

The way Redoubt and Rebuff synergize with each other, it'd be goofy if rebuff triggered on counterattack.

All best,
Aai


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:41 pm 
Offline
Noxius
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:42 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Nashville, TN
I would have to firmly say No. Rebuff would not trigger, as a CounterAttack is not a declaration of attack. As Walker stated, a Counter Attack "it skips right to the dice and resolving"

This is how we play it.



Counter Attack as defined as a Reaction (Page 6 - rulebook):
Counterattack
Cost: Reacting model gains 1 fatigue.

Trigger: After an enemy model declares an Attack Action against the reacting model.

Effect: Roll your ATK instead of DEF against the attack. If you roll more net successes than the attacker, resolve those net successes as if you had made a successful attack. Declaring a Counterattack reaction is not considered declaring an attack against the opposing model.

_________________
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:17 pm 
Offline
Viridis
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:38 am
Posts: 1484
Location: Scandinavian Denmark
KEslinger wrote:
I would have to firmly say No. Rebuff would not trigger, as a CounterAttack is not a declaration of attack.


Rebuff doesn't say anything about it being triggered by a declaration of attack.

_________________
My Arena Rex painting log


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:41 pm 
Offline
Crudus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:19 am
Posts: 112
Quote:
Rebuff doesn't say anything about it being triggered by a declaration of attack.
Yes it does.
Rebuff - When an enemy model attacks this model but fails to deal any damage, this model resolves a PUSH against the attacking model.

I have a feeling that without an official response, this question will be a repeat of Wishing and my previous discussion regarding what constitutes an "Attack", in the Stheno vs Tribune thread. I went fairly in depth there, so I won't repeat my reasoning, but here's the link for my primary opinion (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40764#p49824) which pretty much lines up with KEslinger's way of playing it.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:24 am 
Offline
Viridis
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:38 am
Posts: 1484
Location: Scandinavian Denmark
I feel like it has been established numerous times that "declaration" is a distinct and separate step that has its own triggers. Both of you guys seem to be ignoring that right now, saying that "attack" and "declaration of attack" are the same thing.

They really aren't. Spite is an example of an attack that has no declaration. Therefore it ignores an ability like Taunt, which affects how you are able to declare attacks.

_________________
My Arena Rex painting log


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:16 pm 
Offline
Crudus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:19 am
Posts: 112
It’s not that I’m ignoring the “declaration” aspect, rather I have a different understanding of what an “attack” is.

Spite does not “declare” an attack, but it is still an “attack”. Compare Taunt and Aegis of Fame. As you pointed out, Spite gets around Taunt, which specifies the “declaration” for it to trigger. Aegis of Fame says nothing about a “declaration”, simply “to attack”. So a Spite attack would still trigger Aegis of Fame, because the model is making an attack action, even though it didn’t “declare” one.
But we know that Opportunity Attack gets around Aegis of Fame. Why? Because it's not an "attack" action. “It skips right to dice and resolving.” You still must "declare" you're making an opportunity attack reaction. But that doesn't mean that it is the same thing as an "attack" action. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34638#p40931

An "Attack" is specifically an action. Outside of special rules exceptions, like Spite, Actions can only be taken by the Active Model. “Opportunity Attack” and “Counter Attack” are reactions and can only be taken by the Reactive Model.
Remember the wording on each "Attack", "Opportunity Attack", and "Counter Attack" are different. Each has it's own specific language, making each a specific thing.

To me, the only way that Rebuff would trigger vs a counter attack or opportunity attack would be if the wording was changed to this:
Rebuff - When an enemy model attacks, counter attacks, or opportunity attacks this model but fails to deal any damage, this model resolves a PUSH against the attacking model.

But it’s not written that way, is specifies attack only.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:03 pm 
Offline
Viridis
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:38 am
Posts: 1484
Location: Scandinavian Denmark
But now we are going in circles. I said that Rebuff isn't triggered by the "declaration" part of declaring an attack, in response to Keslinger saying that the lack of a *declaration* is why it wouldn't work. You said that yes, Rebuff totally is triggered by the declaration of attack. I explained that it isn't, and you replied with saying that it doesn't matter about the declaration anyway, because the issue is that something that is treated as an attack isn't treated as an attack in your opinion since it only says attack. Which is the argument you made in the other thread already.

This isn't a question that can be resolved by arguing about whether something that is treated like an attack counts as an attack or not. We already established that this is something we disagree about. This question is simply meant to highlight that it would be nice with an official answer.

_________________
My Arena Rex painting log


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 Next

All times are UTC-05:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
Theme Created by HOLLYSMOKE
Theme updated to phpBB 3.1.3 by KamijouTouma