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 Post subject: Re: Stheno vs Tribune
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Crudus
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Right. From my understanding, any time you roll attack dice, outside of you being the active model declaring an attack action, you are not doing a standard attack. Rather you are performing a "counterattack", or "opportunity attack".

Quote:
So would you say that special rules that refer to attacks never apply when it comes to opportunity attacks?


Right, I would in general say any special rule referring to an attack means a standard attack, and the other types would not apply. This is the reason counter attacks and opportunity attacks get around Hermes Aegis of Fame. They aren't normal attacks.


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 Post subject: Re: Stheno vs Tribune
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:14 am 
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Viridis
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That would mean, though, that no defenses or powers that reference the word "attack" would work against or with opportunity attacks though. Such as Rebuff. Sereqet can't poison with them. And so on.

You could certainly play that way - I just really don't think that was the intention of the designers when they wrote the rules. It is super unintuitive to say that a model making an opportunity attack isn't attacking, and it doesn't say that in the rules anywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Stheno vs Tribune
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:41 am 
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RidiQles wrote:
For those not following on Facebook this is the argument I made there
(I’m Julian):


Hi Julian! I'm Lars. :D

I agree that the original question can only be resolved by interviewing RRG about what they mean with "treat as". Do you treat it as in every single way? And if so, why isn't it just "is" rather than "treat as"?

I suspect that it's just a language thing. If you don't use "treat as", it sounds weird. "Unsuccesful attacks made by this model are succesful with one success" or something. "Treating as", i.e. pretending, just acknowledges that the dice didn't succeed, but tells you to ignore that and act (100%) as though they did.

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 Post subject: Re: Stheno vs Tribune
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:55 am 
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Crudus
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Quote:
That would mean, though, that no defenses or powers that reference the word "attack" would work against or with opportunity attacks though. Such as Rebuff. Sereqet can't poison with them. And so on.


Yes, that is correct based on my reading of the rules. Rebuff, Envenom, and Frigge's Retaliate are all examples where they do not apply outside of a standard active model attack. In fact we have an official ruling from Walker on Retaliate specifically.

Quote:
In short, no, Retaliate doesn't trigger on a Counterattack reaction.
Playtest v2 p.6 wrote:
If you roll more net successes than the Attacker, resolve as if you made a successful attack. Declaring a
Counterattack reaction is not considered declaring an attack against the opposing model.

Basically, Reacton: Counterattack only resolves as though you had attacked them if you get more net successes. It isn't treated as an attack until that condition is met.
viewtopic.php?t=229

There is also the example we have for Aegis of Fame. Which Walker has also ruled does not apply to Counter Attack or Opportunity Attack.
Quote:
2. Opportunity Attack does not trigger Aegis of Fame -- it skips right to the dice and resolving.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34638

I understand where you are coming from in regards to this interpretation being unintuitive and very literal, and can see why thinking a Counter Attack would be an Attack, because it has attack in the name. However, often times game rules and mechanics aren't the most intuitive. In tournament settings in particular, game mechanics and balance > background, fluff, or narrative.

Quote:
It is super unintuitive to say that a model making an opportunity attack isn't attacking, and it doesn't say that in the rules anywhere.


It also doesn't say in the rules that making an Opportunity Attack "IS" an Attack either. It says you are making an "Opportunity Attack". The rules have specifically laid out how an "Attack" works. If two mechanics are supposed to work exactly the same, then you don't have two mechanics, you have one. This is why the rules for counter attack, don't simply state "Declare an Attack Action against the attacking model", rather they specify a separate set of circumstances.

Perhaps think about it in the sense that we have multiple types of special attacks. In this list you have Counter Attack, Opportunity Attack, "Standard Attack" and Power Attack. (Any rule involving attacking, i.e. Aegis of Fame, would also kick in for a Power Attack, because the rule for it specifies a Standard Attack must occur first)

So let's take your example of Sereqet's Envenom: - Immediately after making a successful attack, this model may gain a Fatigue to add 3 damage to the result.

This only applies when Sereqet is the active model, making a "standard" Attack Action. If the designers intended for this special rule to also apply to Counter Attack's and Opportunity Attacks, it would be worded like this: "Immediately after making a successful attack, counter attack, or opportunity attack, this model may gain a Fatigue to add 3 damage to the result. "

So if that seems unintuitive, maybe think about it from the perspective that in the haste to take a swipe (opportunity attack reaction) at a gladiator trying to get away (move action declared while in engagement range), Serqet quickly lashes out with his claw, as he didn't have time to swing his tail to poison them. When Serqet is the active model and has time to fully commit his attention (Standard Attack), then he swings his tail and Envenom comes into play.


Sorry for the wall of text, but hopefully that better helps explain my interpretation.


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 Post subject: Re: Stheno vs Tribune
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:44 am 
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Crudus
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Back to the original question proposed in the OP, I'm in full agreement with you Wishing.

Quote:
I agree that the original question can only be resolved by interviewing RRG about what they mean with "treat as". Do you treat it as in every single way? And if so, why isn't it just "is" rather than "treat as"?


This particular question doesn't have any similar rule precedent as far as I'm aware, and will require an official word from the bosses.


As a side note, can anyone potentially share the link for the Facebook group? I don't have a Facebook account, as I'm not really one for social media (other than forums, haha), but I wouldn't be opposed to having one if it allows for more interaction with other like-minded gamers.


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 Post subject: Re: Stheno vs Tribune
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:03 pm 
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Viridis
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Sure, the link for the facebook group is as such: https://www.facebook.com/groups/364183960360870/

People tend to post pictures of their models there and sometimes some light discussion. :)

As to the attack thing... I understand your point of view, I think. I just don't think that your interpretation is what is intended in one specific sense, which I feel like you gloss over. This quote from Walker that you bring up might help illustrate.

"Basically, Reacton: Counterattack only resolves as though you had attacked them if you get more net successes. It isn't treated as an attack until that condition is met."

He is saying that a counterattack *is treated and resolves like an attack* if the condition is met, i.e. if you roll more successes. Those are his exact words.

So if the counterattack is treated and resolves like an attack, why can't Ywain use Rebuff against it?

You would probably reply "because it isn't an attack, it is a counterattack" - but then we arrive at the Stheno question again. If something is treated as something, and counts as something...

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 Post subject: Re: Stheno vs Tribune
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Crudus
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Yes, you're right, I would agree it's still a counter attack. Which brings us back to the "treat as" question.

But in regards to Rebuff and a counter attack. Remember the fact that Retaliate and Rebuff function the same, and the specific ruling is that Retaliate does not function against a counter attack. A successful Counter Attack might resolve like an attack, but based on the closest rules precedent we have, with Retaliate, that doesn't matter since the Special Rule doesn't apply against a Counter Attack in the first place, before it would get the chance to resolve.


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 Post subject: Re: Stheno vs Tribune
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:53 am 
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KaptainWalrus wrote:
But in regards to Rebuff and a counter attack. Remember the fact that Retaliate and Rebuff function the same, and the specific ruling is that Retaliate does not function against a counter attack.


I actually disagree with both your statement and your conclusion here. Let's look at the evidence.

Retaliate: Enemy models suffer 2 damage if they fail to achieve at least 1 net success when attacking this model or a model assisted by this model.

Rebuff: When an enemy model attacks this model but fails to deal any damage, this model resolves a push against the attacking model.

RRG Walker: Basically, Reacton: Counterattack only resolves as though you had attacked them if you get more net successes. It isn't treated as an attack until that condition is met.

Me: Retaliate and Rebuff do not function the same at all. They have important differences that make this specific comparison you are making wrong.

This is because:

1. Walker says that Counterattack is treated as an attack if you get more net successes than the attacker.

2. Retaliate only activates if the attacker fails to achieve any successes.

3. Rebuff kicks in if the attacker scores successes, but doesn't penetrate armour.

The picture is clear if you analyse it.

Scenario A1: Frigge attacks Ywain, Ywain counterattacks. Ywain scores one more success than Frigge on the contest roll. Ywain inflicts 2 damage on Frigge, which is absorbed by her armour. This was a successful attack (!) on Frigge that inflicted no damage. Retaliate doesn't trigger, because Ywain got successes, and Retaliate only triggers on no successes.

Scenario A2: Frigge attacks Ywain, Ywain counterattacks. Frigge scores one more success than Ywain on the contest roll. Because this is a counterattack, the failure of the defender to score more successes than the attacker means that the attack isn't "flipped over", as was the case in scenario A1. Frigge is still attacking and inflicts 2 damage on Ywain, which is absorbed by his armour. He Rebuffs Frigge. Ywain's failure to achieve successes on Frigge doesn't trigger her Retaliate, because a counterattack only becomes an attack by the defender if the defender wins the roll-off.

Scenario B1: Ywain attacks Frigge, Frigge counterattacks. Frigge scores one more success than Ywain on the contest roll. Frigge inflicts 2 damage on Ywain, which is absorbed by his armour. Then, Frigge's Retaliate triggers, because Ywain attacked her and failed to get any successes, so Ywain takes 2 damage that ignores armour. Finally, Ywain also rebuffs Frigge, because she attacked him (counterattack became an attack because she won) without inflicting any damage on him.

In that scenario, the two attacks both trigger the relevant abilities. The standard attack triggers Retaliate, because it was a failed attack, and the counterattack triggers Rebuff, because it was a successful attack that failed to penetrate armour.

Scenario B2: Ywain attacks Frigge, Frigge counterattacks. Ywain scores one more success than Frigge on the contest roll. Ywain inflicts 2 damage on Frigge that is absorbed by her armour. Retaliate doesn't trigger because Ywain scored successes. Rebuff doesn't trigger because Frigge failed to turn her counterattack into an attack.


The thread you linked to about Retaliate 100% supports my description of the scenarios above, because Walker explains that a counterattack doesn't start as an attack, but becomes one if it is succesful.

Your view that counterattack is never an attack, whether it is succesful or not, directly contradicts Walker's statement.

And the explanation for why Retaliate does not work against a counterattack is that the event that turns the counterattack into an attack - being succesful - is an event that Retaliate does not mention nor interact with. So the question of whether Retaliate works against a counterattack is meaningless. You are basically asking what you do when you fail a succesful attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Stheno vs Tribune
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:05 am 
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Crudus
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Retaliate: “Enemy models suffer 2 damage if they fail to achieve at least 1 net success when attacking this model or model Assisted by this model.”

Rebuff: “When an enemy model attacks this model but fails to deal any damage, this model resolves a PUSH against the attacking model.”

Quote:
Scenario A1: Frigge attacks Ywain, Ywain counterattacks. Ywain scores one more success than Frigge on the contest roll. Ywain inflicts 2 damage on Frigge, which is absorbed by her armour. This was a successful attack (!) on Frigge that inflicted no damage. Retaliate doesn't trigger, because Ywain got successes, and Retaliate only triggers on no successes.
Correct, I agree. In this scenario, Ywain also gets to Rebuff. Because Frigge (The Active model) attacked Ywain (“When an enemy model attacks this model”) and she did not deal any damage as a result of that attack.

Quote:
Scenario A2: Frigge attacks Ywain, Ywain counterattacks. Frigge scores one more success than Ywain on the contest roll. Because this is a counterattack, the failure of the defender to score more successes than the attacker means that the attack isn't "flipped over", as was the case in scenario A1. Frigge is still attacking and inflicts 2 damage on Ywain, which is absorbed by his armour. He Rebuffs Frigge. Ywain's failure to achieve successes on Frigge doesn't trigger her Retaliate, because a counterattack only becomes an attack by the defender if the defender wins the roll-off.
I agree with your end result here. Ywain gets to Rebuff because Frigge (The Active model) attacked Ywain (“When an enemy model attacks this model”) and she did not deal any damage as a result of that attack. I agree that Retaliate doesn’t trigger here either. “Retaliate doesn't trigger on a Counterattack reaction.” So I don’t even have to go any further than that.

Quote:
Scenario B1: Ywain attacks Frigge, Frigge counterattacks. Frigge scores one more success than Ywain on the contest roll. Frigge inflicts 2 damage on Ywain, which is absorbed by his armour. Then, Frigge's Retaliate triggers, because Ywain attacked her and failed to get any successes, so Ywain takes 2 damage that ignores armour. Finally, Ywain also rebuffs Frigge, because she attacked him (counterattack became an attack because she won) without inflicting any damage on him.
Yes, that would be a situation where a Counter Attack would be an “attack” if “treated as” is the same thing as “is”. So that brings us back to the original question of this thread, to determine if this is how to play it.

Quote:
Scenario B2: Ywain attacks Frigge, Frigge counterattacks. Ywain scores one more success than Frigge on the contest roll. Ywain inflicts 2 damage on Frigge that is absorbed by her armour. Retaliate doesn't trigger because Ywain scored successes. Rebuff doesn't trigger because Frigge failed to turn her counterattack into an attack.
Yes, I agree with your outcome. But depending on the answer to the OP question, the reason why Rebuff doesn’t trigger changes. Same result regardless.


Your analysis breakdown is very helpful, and I do agree, that you're right these two abilities are quite different rather than function essentially the same. The "fail to" trigger being different drastically changes the situations when they apply. However, the primary trigger of both "an enemy model attacking this model", still remains in question to me and brings us back to "Treat it as" question.


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 Post subject: Re: Stheno vs Tribune
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Viridis
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KaptainWalrus wrote:
Yes, that would be a situation where a Counter Attack would be an “attack” if “treated as” is the same thing as “is”. So that brings us back to the original question of this thread, to determine if this is how to play it.


Thanks for replying, I know that was a lot of text. :)

We now agree that a counterattack is treated like an attack if it is successful, and that the previous ruling on Retaliate not being relevant for a counterattack is not relevant for this issue, right?

As per above, we just disagree about scenario B1 then... In my view, because the succesful counterattack is treated like an attack, it would trigger Rebuff. In your view, it is only treated like an attack, and that isn't enough, because in reality it is a counterattack, and therefore it wouldn't trigger Rebuff. Right?

So do you also not think that Stheno would negate Tribune, since her success is only treated like a success and isn't really a success?

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