KaptainWalrus wrote:
But in regards to Rebuff and a counter attack. Remember the fact that Retaliate and Rebuff function the same, and the specific ruling is that Retaliate does not function against a counter attack.
I actually disagree with both your statement and your conclusion here. Let's look at the evidence.
Retaliate: Enemy models suffer 2 damage if they fail to achieve at least 1 net success when attacking this model or a model assisted by this model.
Rebuff: When an enemy model attacks this model but fails to deal any damage, this model resolves a push against the attacking model.
RRG Walker: Basically, Reacton: Counterattack only resolves as though you had attacked them if you get more net successes. It isn't treated as an attack until that condition is met.
Me: Retaliate and Rebuff do not function the same at all. They have important differences that make this specific comparison you are making wrong.
This is because:
1. Walker says that Counterattack is treated as an attack if you get more net successes than the attacker.
2. Retaliate only activates if the attacker fails to achieve any successes.
3. Rebuff kicks in if the attacker scores successes, but doesn't penetrate armour.
The picture is clear if you analyse it.
Scenario A1: Frigge attacks Ywain, Ywain counterattacks. Ywain scores one more success than Frigge on the contest roll. Ywain inflicts 2 damage on Frigge, which is absorbed by her armour. This was a successful attack (!) on Frigge that inflicted no damage. Retaliate doesn't trigger, because Ywain got successes, and Retaliate only triggers on no successes.
Scenario A2: Frigge attacks Ywain, Ywain counterattacks. Frigge scores one more success than Ywain on the contest roll. Because this is a counterattack, the failure of the defender to score more successes than the attacker means that the attack isn't "flipped over", as was the case in scenario A1. Frigge is still attacking and inflicts 2 damage on Ywain, which is absorbed by his armour. He Rebuffs Frigge. Ywain's failure to achieve successes on Frigge doesn't trigger her Retaliate, because a counterattack only becomes an attack by the defender if the defender wins the roll-off.
Scenario B1: Ywain attacks Frigge, Frigge counterattacks. Frigge scores one more success than Ywain on the contest roll. Frigge inflicts 2 damage on Ywain, which is absorbed by his armour. Then, Frigge's Retaliate triggers, because Ywain attacked her and failed to get any successes, so Ywain takes 2 damage that ignores armour. Finally, Ywain also rebuffs Frigge, because she attacked him (counterattack became an attack because she won) without inflicting any damage on him.
In that scenario, the two attacks both trigger the relevant abilities. The standard attack triggers Retaliate, because it was a failed attack, and the counterattack triggers Rebuff, because it was a successful attack that failed to penetrate armour.
Scenario B2: Ywain attacks Frigge, Frigge counterattacks. Ywain scores one more success than Frigge on the contest roll. Ywain inflicts 2 damage on Frigge that is absorbed by her armour. Retaliate doesn't trigger because Ywain scored successes. Rebuff doesn't trigger because Frigge failed to turn her counterattack into an attack.
The thread you linked to about Retaliate 100% supports my description of the scenarios above, because Walker explains that a counterattack doesn't start as an attack, but becomes one if it is succesful.
Your view that counterattack is never an attack, whether it is succesful or not, directly contradicts Walker's statement.
And the explanation for why Retaliate does not work against a counterattack is that the event that turns the counterattack into an attack - being succesful - is an event that Retaliate does not mention nor interact with. So the question of whether Retaliate works against a counterattack is meaningless. You are basically asking what you do when you fail a succesful attack.