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 Post subject: disenage rule
PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:32 am 
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Noxius

Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:20 am
Posts: 1
so ive been playing with my friend And hes got the zephyr and a good few of them have disengage which allows them to have a free move action once they reach that vitality marker instead of getting the favor. but does that mean if they move once they reach that marker that as long as they are out of combat range they prevent the rest of the damage they would receive or that they simply just get a free move action and still take damage following that point. because ive just been playing against them and they take about 4 out of my 7 or 10 damage that I would deal and run away laughing at me.


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 Post subject: Re: disenage rule
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:04 pm 
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Viridis
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:38 am
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Location: Scandinavian Denmark
The timing works like this. :)

1. You attack!
2. You deal 7 damage with the attack as a whole.
3. Zephyri model suffers the 7 damage.
4. Zephyri model notes that one of the 7 damage they took triggered a disengage. They move away.
5. You want to attack again, but they moved away. Damn.

So disengage saves them from the second attack. But not the first. For a single attack, you add up all the damage as one big pile, and you apply it as one big pile. Not piece by piece.

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 Post subject: Re: disenage rule
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:21 am 
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Noxius

Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:06 pm
Posts: 1
Is that an official ruling somewhere? I'm asking because the wording of the damage tree is quite confusing where disengage is involved. The wording under damage tree states that effects are resolved in the order they appear on the tree, THEN damaged is totaled and applied at the end of the attack.

So if an early effect pushes my model into a disengage trigger, wouldn't I disengage at that point? That seems to be supported in the rules, which go on to say that if the resolution of any effect leaves either figure in a position where the attacker no longer engages the defender, the attack cannot continue and net successes are lost.

So it does seem like disengage triggers in such a way that the defender can avoid damage. Otherwise, it's really more like a reposition or something, not it's own rule. But with the wording on the tree, I'm just not sure and am looking for an official ruling.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: disenage rule
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Noxius

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:47 am
Posts: 4
I'm in the same boat. Disengage seems like based on the wording combined with the rules for positioning and moving out of position cancelling the rest of your successes that they can just take 1 or 2 points of damage, hit their disengage, and then flip you off and walk away.

Its extraordinarily frustrating.


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 Post subject: Re: disenage rule
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:28 am 
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Viridis
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:38 am
Posts: 1484
Location: Scandinavian Denmark
The solution here is found within the printed rules, honestly!

There are two different kinds of "box effects". The first is damage tree effects. The second is vitality bar effects.

Damage tree effects are triggered while you are resolving the attack, before you apply damage. These are things like pushes [push] and repositions [reposition] .

Vitality bar effects are triggered after the full damage of the attack - which is applied as one big package - has been applied. The only common vitality bar effect is favor [favor] , which can be replaced by things like disengage.

These two types of effects are triggered differently with different rules. And the problem you are running into is that you are trying to apply the damage tree effect rules (the rules on page 8) to a vitality bar effect (the rules on page 9).

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 Post subject: Re: disenage rule
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:36 am 
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Viridis
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:38 am
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Location: Scandinavian Denmark
I mean, if you think it's confusingly written in the rules, I can't argue with your opinion... but I would point to the following parts of the rules.

"Any effects applied are resolved in the order they appear on the tree, then damage is totaled and applied at the end of the attack. If the resolution of any effect leaves the attacker or defender positioned such that the attacker no longer engages the defender, the attack cannot continue, and any successes not yet applied are lost." (Page 8)

The above is talking about damage tree effects specifically. We know this because it is under the header "Damage Tree".

"After the total damage is calculated from the attacker’s successes and damage tree, it is reduced by the defending model’s ARM stat. The wounded model marks the remaining damage by filling an equal number of boxes on their Vitality Track, from left to right. All damage from a single attack is considered to be marked simultaneously." (Page 9)

The above describes how all damage from a single attack is applied as one package, simultaneously. After that, there is a section about how some vitality boxes can trigger certain effects, like disengage. These sections do not contradict each other. The damage is applied as one package, and only after you have done that, you check if the damage you just sustained will allow you to disengage.

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 Post subject: Re: disenage rule
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:43 pm 
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Crudus

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:54 am
Posts: 143
Also, I think it's worth noting that the repositions on the damage tree itself allow the ATTACKER to disengage and sacrifice the rest of the damage output for the sake of the advantage of position.
"If the resolution of any effect leaves the attacker or defender positioned such that the attacker no longer engages the defender, the attack cannot continue, and any successes not yet applied are lost." Refers to this fact, and does not have to do with your vitality track, which as Wishing has said, is separate and is applied all at once.


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 Post subject: Re: disenage rule
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Viridis
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:38 am
Posts: 1484
Location: Scandinavian Denmark
One more thing I just want to address.

stabbyhotep wrote:
So if an early effect pushes my model into a disengage trigger, wouldn't I disengage at that point?


In theory, yes. But the "early effects", i.e. the special effects from the damage tree, never do any damage themselves, so they cannot possibly trigger a disengage. Pushes and repositions and other damage tree effects all affect placement (which is where you have the possibility of the attacker moving outside of attack range), or add fatigue, or give you favor. Once you have resolved all these non-damage effects, the early effects, then you apply all the damage in one go.

The only way I can see what you describe as being possible is if I push a Zephyri model into a wounding hazard. That inflicts an immediate 3 damage when the push happens, so if those 3 separate damage trigger a disengage box, then the defender would be able to move away in the middle of the attack (I assume), and not suffer any of post-push attack damage. But that's only possible because the 3 damage from the hazard are separate from the damage from the actual main attack. The main attack damage, i.e. the damage from all the damage tree results, is all applied in one go.

(Note that I had not thought of the wounding hazard -> disengage thing before, so I don't know if it works in reality - but I don't see why not.)

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 Post subject: Re: disenage rule
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:58 pm 
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Noxius

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:42 am
Posts: 3
Wishing is correct in his statements. If you need an official runling it can be found on page 4 of this forum in the "Disengage Ability" thread.


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 Post subject: Re: disenage rule
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:21 am 
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Crudus
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Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:49 pm
Posts: 103
Yea, disengage doesn't let you escape damage. That would just be really OP. All the damage is applied at once, and you decide if you want to disengage after the fact. Useful for getting an injured model away, or bringing someone like Bjarrhvit back where she needs to be after being pushed away. Now, keep in mind that if you tick off two or more favor boxes, you can use disengage twice or more if you gotta go fast. To my knowledge, there is no limit to how many times you can trade a favor for using disengage.

Also, just from a game balance perspective, Zephyri have the highest damage potential in the game (out of the normal human ludii) with their berserk characters, but they're very risky. If you could use disengage to mitigate that risk and escape damage early, they'd be too powerful, and I'd feel like an asshole for being a Zephyri main.


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