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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:25 pm 
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Viridis
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I was looking at the card for Ywain and his Rebuff ability, which is a special ability that can trigger to resolve a [push] result against an attacking enemy.

When a push like that is triggered, is that meant to be both the 1" push + follow up and the 1 damage, or just the 1" push + follow up? And if it includes damage, is the damage reduced by armour?

I guess another way to ask is: when a special ability activates a [push], [reposition], [favor] or similar result, are they treated 100% the same as if they came from a damage tree as part of an attack, or is it just the unique effect of the symbol that is triggered, with no associated damage?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:35 am 
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Crudus

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I believe they do 1 damage, because in the explanation of the [push] icons it says 1 dmg plus a push, so that is what the icon means. Abilities thus say resolve a [push] instead of resolve a push. That is how we do it anyway :)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:30 am 
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Viridis
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It makes sense, I just feel that it is a little unclear. Especially whether the damage, if it is there, is reduced by ARM or not.

The rule of [push] = [Push + 1 damage] is under the headline "Damage Tree Results". Immediately above that, it says that ARM is only subtracted from damage originating from a damage tree. So the [push] is a damage tree result, but it can be applied from a non-attack ability too. Which makes me wonder if it still counts as a damage tree result then.

Compare with the other symbols. [favor] and [star] are specifically called out in the rulebook as damage tree results, but also as vitality box effects. They can be either, but use the same symbol. So if the symbol always means 100% the same thing, then does a [favor] effect on the vitality track also do 1 damage on the attacking model?

I think reading intuitively, I would venture that all symbols found on the damage tree or in a special ability do + 1 damage, and that if it originates from a special ability rather than an attack, this damage is not reduced by ARM (choosing to interpret the damage as "damage from other effect" rather than "damage from damage tree"). Any symbols found on the vitality track I would venture are meant to only trigger the effect and not the + 1 damage.

I'm curious if this is how it's meant to be played for reals. 8-)

Post-clarification edit: Turns out it is not. See below. To summarise:

Symbol effects activated by a special ability always count as if they originate from an attack / damage tree and are resolved as such, including damage, with the exception of symbol effects found on the vitality track. Symbol effects on the vitality track do not include damage. Damage that counts as originating from an attack / damage tree is reduced by ARM.

The damage that counts as "damage from other effect", and is not reduced by ARM, is damage that is not associated with a symbol.

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Last edited by Wishing on Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:17 pm 
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Good close reading. RAW is a little unclear, I will work on cleaning this up for our next edit. Until then, here is the intent:

Generally a [push] is going to have the 1 damage included, but armor will apply. The bonus for successfully attacking an exhausted model is treated as part of your damage tree, so that one is easy.

In other places where a single result is resolved (Exploit, Rebuff) were intended to be shorthand for a [push] as a sort of abbreviated attack. Think of them as a virtual orphaned [push] on the top row of the damage tree (with no connections, so nowhere to go further down the tree).

Vitality track symbols will not apply damage (unless we later write a [star] that does in the text ;))

The direct damage abilities should be written out as text ("suffer 2 damage"), rather than having a [2dmg], [3dmg], etc.

TL;DR: damage is included, armor applies, will cleanup next edit. :D


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:09 pm 
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Viridis
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Excellent, thank you for the answer.

I guess that means that almost always, the Rebuff ability will just push the attacking model back without damaging it, since the ability does do 1 damage, but the damage will be absorbed by the attacker's ARM. Only those few models with 0 ARM will be affected.

And I like the rule of thumb that if a rule applies damage that is written as text rather than as a symbol, like "does 3 damage", then it counts as direct damage, and the damage ignores ARM. But if a rule applies damage that is connected to a symbol, like [3dmg], then it counts as its own mini-attack, and then it doesn't ignore ARM. Right?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:32 pm 
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Crudus

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Thanks for the clarification! :)


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